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Haschel

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Haschel   

I'm terribly sorry, Haschel. I didn't realize we were ignoring the general market downturn on MMOs and pretending each of these games existed in a vacuum rather than a declining ecosystem where mobile gaming is taking all the profits. I withdraw my post.

 

 

Terribly sorry Science, didn't know we weren't entitled to our own opinions about wanting the game to not be ruined by the majority playerbase that kills ever other MMO that they touch.

 

It is the mindset of people wanting to be instantly rewarded that kills games.

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Science   

Terribly sorry Science, didn't know we weren't entitled to our own opinions about wanting the game to not be ruined by the majority playerbase that kills ever other MMO that they touch.

 

It is the mindset of people wanting to be instantly rewarded that kills games.

 

Maybe it's because I'm not an industry expert, but I obviously don't understand what you mean by "killed". You consider the two most popular MMOs to be "dead" and that Wildstar didn't cater to "hardcore" players despite a stated mission and an industry-wide assessment the game was hard.

 

Maybe you can explain to me and others here who obviously don't have your level of insight what's actually wrong here?

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Phantom   

It's all quite simple really. Imagine a line that represents the average intelligence of Western society. As time passes that line is plummeting at an alarming rate. Game difficulty and depth is tied to that line, and as such is also plummeting along with it. The sad fact is that intelligence is just not "cool" anymore.

 

I haven't experienced a real challenge outside of games that specifically segment difficulty levels to cater to different skill levels for countless years. Western MMOs are dead to me, so I'm basically limited to getting on my knees and begging Western developers to not trivialize the Asian MMOs they have the privilege of getting their hands on.

 

I still have my hopes up for BnS, so let's hope they don't cater to the little fish bobbing around the surface of the water begging for food to be tossed down to them.

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Haschel   

Maybe it's because I'm not an industry expert, but I obviously don't understand what you mean by "killed". You consider the two most popular MMOs to be "dead" and that Wildstar didn't cater to "hardcore" players despite a stated mission and an industry-wide assessment the game was hard.

 

Maybe you can explain to me and others here who obviously don't have your level of insight what's actually wrong here?

 

WoW still exists because there's nothing else out there to play. Also so many people have sunk so much time and money into the game that its difficult for them to just flat out quit. 

 

HOWEVER anytime a game loses SIX MILLION SUBSCRIBERS??!?!?!?! Safe to say that game is dying and on the downward spiral. Keep in mind they have like 200+ servers, when you lose 6 million players the #'s on those servers drop dramatically.

 

There was nothing hard about wildstar? Maybe im just too good..(hue KAPPA LOL ya right) but I found nothing difficult about Wildstar. The game died because it was flawed and they released an unfinished product with too many holes and bugs.

 

gw2 one of the most popular? I havent even heard words of gw2 mentioned until faction chat in the game. Hell the majority Alpha 1 players were from TERA, not gw2. It's easy for a game to be popular when it never had a subscription and had a former dedicated playerbase from the original guild wars series.

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Haschel   

It's all quite simple really. Imagine a line that represents the average intelligence of Western society. As time passes that line is plummeting at an alarming rate. Game difficulty and depth is tied to that line, and as such is also plummeting along with it. The sad fact is that intelligence is just not "cool" anymore.

 

I haven't experienced a real challenge outside of games that specifically segment difficulty levels to cater to different skill levels for countless years. Western MMOs are dead to me, so I'm basically limited to getting on my knees and begging Western developers to not trivialize the Asian MMOs they have the privilege of getting their hands on.

 

I still have my hopes up for BnS, so let's hope they don't cater to the little fish bobbing around the surface of the water begging for food to be tossed down to them.

 

See I wanted to try to avoid talking about the western intelligence but seeing that you posted it first, allow me to add. The problem is now that in the West(US) people of the current generation are so spoiled by the lifestyle of instant gratification. They want something and they want it now, they dont want to wait for it or work for it. Unfortunately this mindset and lifestyle has been migrating its way into MMO's where people want to be instantly gratified just for being present and going "hey im playing your game for you, give me stuff".

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Phantom   

See I wanted to try to avoid talking about the western intelligence but seeing that you posted it first, allow me to add. The problem is now that in the West(US) people of the current generation are so spoiled by the lifestyle of instant gratification. They want something and they want it now, they dont want to wait for it or work for it. Unfortunately this mindset and lifestyle has been migrating its way into MMO's where people want to be instantly gratified just for being present and going "hey im playing your game for you, give me stuff".

 

Thank you for adding to my "Idiocracy" rant, you make some very pertinent points.

 

There is a similarly deep and concerning issue that is parallel to, and in most senses intersects with, this concept of needing instant gratification. And that is, for lack of a better word, entitlement. There seems to be an underlying lack of appreciation for the fact that effort->reward and that those people with the most rewards most likely have put in the most effort (excluding the rare exceptions). It's the same mindset that leads to phrases like "everyone who drives a Ferrari has a small Weiner". It basically comes down to the fact that the vast majority of people have this massively over-inflated view of either their current selves or their potential as human beings, and believe they deserve anything and everything they can see around them. When they bring that into games you end up with people complaining when they see someone with better armour than them, or maybe a rare mount that they could never acquire because it drops from the last boss of a legendary raid.

 

"What makes that person better than me. I should have those things too, but I don't want to raid. Give them to me. What do you mean I can't have them? I'm quitting, and spitting negativity about you wherever I go!"

 

No matter what people will find reasons to complain, especially when that reason is them not being as epic as someone who has put in the time and effort to get to that point.

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Haschel   

Thank you for adding to my "Idiocracy" rant, you make some very pertinent points.

 

There is a similarly deep and concerning issue that is parallel to, and in most senses intersects with, this concept of needing instant gratification. And that is, for lack of a better word, entitlement. There seems to be an underlying lack of appreciation for the fact that effort->reward and that those people with the most rewards most likely have put in the most effort (excluding the rare exceptions). It's the same mindset that leads to phrases like "everyone who drives a Ferrari has a small Weiner". It basically comes down to the fact that the vast majority of people have this massively over-inflated view of either their current selves or their potential as human beings, and believe they deserve anything and everything they can see around them. When they bring that into games you end up with people complaining when they see someone with better armour than them, or maybe a rare mount that they could never acquire because it drops from the last boss of a legendary raid.

 

"What makes that person better than me. I should have those things too, but I don't want to raid. Give them to me. What do you mean I can't have them? I'm quitting, and spitting negativity about you wherever I go!"

 

No matter what people will find reasons to complain, especially when that reason is them not being as epic as someone who has put in the time and effort to get to that point.

 

And bingo was his name oh!

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Shiro   

Then I would have to ask you to not play this game ^.^ Look at what happened to other games that catered to casuals. They died. Rather not see this one die either.

Really? Name me some hardcore grindy games that are still alive, instead.

 

"Work" for your gear is a stupid concept considering this is a game, not a job.

 

Games aren't made for people with no jobs to act as their "job" in life, those people probably don't even spend much on it to keep it alive.

 

I also found it insulting you said people who dislike massive grind "suck hard", I'm pretty sure many of us can win you in arena easily because gear doesn't matter. You're probably one of those who relies on gear advantages that's why you enjoy grinding, and you think you're skilled when you win.

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Kaminari   

don't judge game by its 45 first lvls.

This was BnS failure on it release in kr.

which result adding 5+20 lvls to cap

all so heroic and godly weapons that need around 400000 gold to complete.

atm in kr lvl cap is 50+20 but i think common lvl is 50+12-14 because lvl 15 hm need i think ridiculous amount of xp.

 

Im bit sad how neffed down crafting has become compare to bns 1.0 tho.

only reasonable craft left is warden and maybe priest that can make something useful.

 

And in the end BNS kr version what matter most is your character lvl because in arena there is default stats for all ppl no matter u are in rags or in god weapons.

Lvl give u skill points that can give u only advantage there.

 

I hope NA/EU upgrade to 50+20 soon it will be nail to coffin to keep us stuck 45 and not even haveing bsh and mushin tower to waste our time.

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Haschel   

Really? Name me some hardcore grindy games that are still alive, instead.

 

"Work" for your gear is a stupid concept considering this is a game, not a job.

 

Games aren't made for people with no jobs to act as their "job" in life, those people probably don't even spend much on it to keep it alive.

 

I also found it insulting you said people who dislike massive grind "suck hard", I'm pretty sure many of us can win you in arena easily because gear doesn't matter. You're probably one of those who relies on gear advantages that's why you enjoy grinding, and you think you're skilled when you win.

 

where did I say people who dislike massive grind "suck hard"? When im talking about gear im directly speaking of PVE. In PVP gear doesnt matter for arena. Only in OW does it matter. You dont even have to GRIND for gear in PVE right now. Thats my point. It took less than a weekend to get maxed out and people are complaining about it taking too long? seriously? Get over it. If you wanna be spoon fed then go back to the other games that spoon feed already, dont make this another one. You guys are starting to get fat like the rest of America which is full of entitled people that wanna do less to get more.

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Really? Name me some hardcore grindy games that are still alive, instead.

 

 Maplestory

FFXI lasted for 14 years and is shutting down soon 

AION

Lineage (1 and 2)

FFXIV (Although it caters to both Casual and Hardcore *Though sometimes, not in a good way*)

Ragnarok Online

 

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Phantom   

There seems to be some really disparate points of view here and people who don't quite understand what the point of this thread is.

 

Should someone who put in 1 hour of gaming receive the same rewards as someone who puts in 4 hours? No.

 

Do you need the best gear in the game to succeed at Blade & Soul and enjoy the content it offers? No.

 

Should content be trivialized and requirements for top tier achievements and items reduced so that even casual players can easily get them? No.

 

The point is, nobody here is saying that you should not play if you want to enjoy the game on a casual level. What we're saying is don't play the game casually and complain that someone is better geared than you or is more skilled than you after they have put in far more hours than you have.

 

If everything were easy to get, what would be the point? Just enjoy the game at the level you are prepared to put into it, and let those who do more, get more. End of story.

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Haschel   

There seems to be some really disparate points of view here and people who don't quite understand what the point of this thread is.

 

Should someone who put in 1 hour of gaming receive the same rewards as someone who puts in 4 hours? No.

 

Do you need the best gear in the game to succeed at Blade & Soul and enjoy the content it offers? No.

 

Should content be trivialized and requirements for top tier achievements and items reduced so that even casual players can easily get them? No.

 

The point is, nobody here is saying that you should not play if you want to enjoy the game on a casual level. What we're saying is don't play the game casually and complain that someone is better geared than you or is more skilled than you after they have put in far more hours than you have.

 

If everything were easy to get, what would be the point? Just enjoy the game at the level you are prepared to put into it, and let those who do more, get more. End of story.

 

 cant be explained any better.

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If everything were easy to get, what would be the point? Just enjoy the game at the level you are prepared to put into it, and let those who do more, get more. End of story.

 

They don't care about that stuff at all. It's all about this bizarre logic of "lol I work for a living so i deserve everything outside of work for free" which funny enough, a majority i screened in every game i played that are this dense or super casual, they tend to be freeloaders,poor people, or dependents (someone's kid or spouse who never/barely lifted a finger so basically they're speaking from another person's perspective or they think flipping burgers is hard). You really think they factor if everything were easy to get, what would be the point? They just want their welfare check easy mode loot.

Edited by SeekerScorpio

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Shiro   

where did I say people who dislike massive grind "suck hard"? When im talking about gear im directly speaking of PVE. In PVP gear doesnt matter for arena. Only in OW does it matter. You dont even have to GRIND for gear in PVE right now. Thats my point. It took less than a weekend to get maxed out and people are complaining about it taking too long? seriously? Get over it. If you wanna be spoon fed then go back to the other games that spoon feed already, dont make this another one. You guys are starting to get fat like the rest of America which is full of entitled people that wanna do less to get more.

You said in the first post or maybe I misunderstood. "Don't have the time or want to put in the effort or you just suck to hard?"

 

People maxed out in one weekend but we have no content, do you even know what's coming in the future and how much more grind than it is now? I'm thinking of the FUTURE of this game, if people have trouble maxing out a char with the (almost none) content we have in Alpha, nobody will get maxed out in years at 50 cap.

 

I'm from EU not America.

 

 

 Maplestory

FFXI lasted for 14 years and is shutting down soon 

AION

Lineage (1 and 2)

FFXIV (Although it caters to both Casual and Hardcore *Though sometimes, not in a good way*)

Ragnarok Online

 

Is that a joke? I asked for "alive" games, whatever that means, not games that are still up, because all the games the OP said "died" are still up and running, just "died" like gamers put it subjectively when low activity.

 

But with that logic, Aion and L2 (don't know about Maplestory and Ragnarok's situation) are both extremely dead, Archeage dying too, and casual games like WoW (how it is now) and GW2, and even Tera are much, much more popular.

 

Like I said, think about what genre is actually dying - grindy, or "easy".

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You said in the first post or maybe I misunderstood. "Don't have the time or want to put in the effort or you just suck to hard?"

 

People maxed out in one weekend but we have no content, do you even know what's coming in the future and how much more grind than it is now? I'm thinking of the FUTURE of this game, if people have trouble maxing out a char with the (almost none) content we have in Alpha, nobody will get maxed out in years at 50 cap.

 

I'm from EU not America.

 

 

Is that a joke? I asked for "alive" games, whatever that means, not games that are still up, because all the games the OP said "died" are still up and running, just "died" like gamers put it subjectively when low activity.

 

But with that logic, Aion and L2 (don't know about Maplestory and Ragnarok's situation) are both extremely dead, Archeage dying too, and casual games like WoW (how it is now) and GW2, and even Tera are much, much more popular.

 

Like I said, think about what genre is actually dying - grindy, or "easy".

The games I've mentioned are still alive though if they're still up, the fact that you say "whatever that means" shows that you don't really have a clue about what "keeps" a game running as long as it does, to count as being "alive".

They have people still playing them and paying, and as long as people are playing the game, it's still alive,

I don't base a game being alive on popularity, I see it as long as people are playing, the game is successful.

FFXI survived on 500k subscribers for 14 years.

By your logic, TERA, WoW and GW2 should be dead as well. (Mainly WOW because going from 12 million to 6 million means it died a while ago and thus no longer profitable.)

BOTH genres die, make a game too easy and you'll have people out-gearing content and leaving when there's nothing else to do.

Make it too hard and it'll only appeal to a certain demographic that'll most likely destroy that content as well and leave.

MMORPGs are made to retain people of both demographics, allowing casual people to play on their own time

when they can manage, sure they won't get all of the things a hardcore player will get due to the amount of time a hardcore player will spend vs a casual, but they shouldn't expect to be instantly gratified for doing less work than a player that put effort into beating content that was nerfed to oblivion because people complained.

It reminds me of when FFXIV re-launched and casual players wanted older players' character's deleted because they got to keep their old characters and "get ahead", when in fact, they had to re-do everything.

You just can't go and punish others' because they have something you want.

If people want something, they will work for it and enjoy the game, not cry that someone has a nice ball, and they want that ball too and should get it for less effort.

If the developers nerf everything to cater to casuals, then the hardcores will leave, there has to be a middle ground somewhere, and that's why it's hard with the way mmorpgs have been lately.

Edited by Barnivere

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Familiar   

I work 8 hours per day and making an game on my freetime and still got time for my missus AND games.

 

I hate when people think Casual is an way to make an game spoonfed them. Sure there is element in the game that should be improved like Quartz nodes, Spins 60 mins cooldown. But they are working on it

Completely off topic but...those *cricket*ing quartz nodes! Wasted so much time waiting for them to respawn...

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Shiro   

The games I've mentioned are still alive though if they're still up, the fact that you say "whatever that means" shows that you don't really have a clue about what "keeps" a game running as long as it does, to count as being "alive".

They have people still playing them and paying, and as long as people are playing the game, it's still alive,

I don't base a game being alive on popularity, I see it as long as people are playing, the game is successful.

FFXI survived on 500k subscribers for 14 years.

By your logic, TERA, WoW and GW2 should be dead as well. (Mainly WOW because going from 12 million to 6 million means it died a while ago and thus no longer profitable.)

I'm not gonna argue with you because you're right and I agree, I didn't bring up this "die" thing I just quoted a post. And casual games are not dying compared to hardcore games, in fact it's the opposite.

 

Here's the quote if you're wondering:

Look at what happened to other games that catered to casuals. They died. Rather not see this one die either.

And I would actually say the same - please don't kill this game by making it a huge grind like Archeage and Black Desert, who both sunk insanely fast relatively to their hype...

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Science   

See I wanted to try to avoid talking about the western intelligence but seeing that you posted it first, allow me to add. The problem is now that in the West(US) people of the current generation are so spoiled by the lifestyle of instant gratification. They want something and they want it now, they dont want to wait for it or work for it. Unfortunately this mindset and lifestyle has been migrating its way into MMO's where people want to be instantly gratified just for being present and going "hey im playing your game for you, give me stuff".

 

This post is incredibly ironic coming from the people who are entitled and demanding everyone else accommodate them despite the most famous and interesting part of the game being designed for them. And a lecture about how "this generation" doesn't understand the meaning of hard work seems somewhat out of place in a discussion about how people want to enjoy a game more so that they can return to doing things in the real world. 

 

People in here like Haschel and Phantom complain that they don't feel a sense of genuine accomplishment if the game is "too easy" for their rarefied tastes. Perhaps this is because it is a game. It's a way to kill time. If you don't feel a sense of genuine accomplishment, that's probably because being good at Blade & Soul (however fun and interesting) is not genuine accomplishment. Perhaps they would find solving challenges and doing things in the real world would be a more gratifying experience?

 

But please, everyone, do remember that the Alpha was deliberately sped up. If you did surveys, you could quickly trivialize the first 30 levels. Premium membership benefits and free NCoin sped this up even further. Most people who made it to 40 started to repeat content to get drops and noticed a reasonable difficulty curve increase. The release candidate won't have these survey bonuses or free Hongmoon store items. It will be slower. 

Edited by Science

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And I would actually say the same - please don't kill this game by making it a huge grind like Archeage and Black Desert, who both sunk insanely fast relatively to their hype...

And that's why Black Desert is going to be B2P here in NA, they have to re-coup the losses from their screw up somewhere.

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Familiar   

I'm not gonna argue with you because you're right and I agree, I didn't bring up this "die" thing I just quoted a post. And casual games are not dying compared to hardcore games, in fact it's the opposite.

 

Here's the quote if you're wondering:

And I would actually say the same - please don't kill this game by making it a huge grind like Archeage and Black Desert, who both sunk insanely fast relatively to their hype...

Yeah, but saying "These games are hardcore, therefore they failed" is kind of vague. Archeage's problems had very little to do with the actual game and more the cash shop and other bungling by the developer. Black Desert was fine BEFORE it went into Open Beta where they took the game in a completely different direction than they had previously stated and even completely different from the last closed beta. BDO actually got waaaaay more casual from the last CBT to the OB and people WERE NOT happy about it.

 

Just like what happened with Wildstar, the game was completely fine in the closed beta, but as soon as they went into open beta there were all kinds of bugs and things (especially PvP wise, which is why my WHOLE guild left the game) that made the game a lot less fun than it had been and they took waaay too long to fix it. If you ACTUALLY look at things or played any of these games you'll see that most of the games touted as "hardcore" actually started dying because of messed up management not fixing what needs fixing or when they started becoming more casual.

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Science   

Yeah, but saying "These games are hardcore, therefore they failed" is kind of vague. Archeage's problems had very little to do with the actual game and more the cash shop and other bungling by the developer. Black Desert was fine BEFORE it went into Open Beta where they took the game in a completely different direction than they had previously stated and even completely different from the last closed beta. BDO actually got waaaaay more casual from the last CBT to the OB and people WERE NOT happy about it.

 

Just like what happened with Wildstar, the game was completely fine in the closed beta, but as soon as they went into open beta there were all kinds of bugs and things (especially PvP wise, which is why my WHOLE guild left the game) that made the game a lot less fun than it had been and they took waaay too long to fix it. If you ACTUALLY look at things or played any of these games you'll see that most of the games touted as "hardcore" actually started dying because of messed up management not fixing what needs fixing or when they started becoming more casual.

 

No doubt. It only came up because it's a good rhetorical device to dismiss the idea that a game is "killed" if it doesn't cater to some arbitrary version of difficulty that Rando Calrisian and the Timewaster Squad has dictated.

 

It's just goofy to imply that games like WoW, GW2 and leaving the genre f2p-iap games like Clash of Clans are "dying." ALL the money is chasing casual content now. Even in the Asian markets. Look at the FFXIV launch in Korea, it was a blockbuster for an MMO launch.

 

Ultimately, the really speedy leveling will be locked behind a paywall at launch. That's good. People with jobs, kids, or other stuff can keep up with people who don't have those things, and that means a more robust and unified playerbase. Ask anyone who joined FFXIV post-Heavensward, it really sucks to be locked in a newbie instance with a few weeks of average playtime just to join the bulk of the playerbase in grinding content.

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Fenrui   

Haschel, ty for doing what I was too... I guess afraid of doing, lol. It really is annoying how people are basically saying that just because people in a completely different society with different norms in games have something free, that they expect it free here too when very few to no games follow that system here.

 

And great points phantom. I had nothing to do this weekend but play the game. I was playing about 12 hours straight every day in alpha. I was able to really just speed through everything (didn't play story since it is alpha) and got incredibly geared. I gained levels. My friend, who started at the same time as me, as school on weekends. They didn't gain as many levels. Is she going to complain that she didn't get as many levels as me because she didn't have as much time to play like I did? No, that'd be rediculous. You get rewarded for effort in this game, and no matter what everyone gets the same rewards.... in time. You can be a casual player and love this game to hell. Someone's better geared and knows game mechanics better than you? They got queued with you in a dungeon? Good, ask them about the boss. Lean on them. Because once you put in enough time and progress in the game, you'll get the same stuff!!

 

Games aren't designed to hold our hands and let us sleep in their lap. That's what mothers are for. Spoon feeding? Mothers as well. This is a game, and just as in any game you have to play it. You have to learn it. You have to earn it.

 

EDIT: And can we stop saying the game is killed because they devs won't cater to the the few that want to be spoonfed? If the game was dead, everyone would ask for a refund and development would completely stop. The game is still very much alive and I expect it to be so for at least several years, the way it is going right now.

Edited by Fenrui

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Haschel   

This post is incredibly ironic coming from the people who are entitled and demanding everyone else accommodate them despite the most famous and interesting part of the game being designed for them. And a lecture about how "this generation" doesn't understand the meaning of hard work seems somewhat out of place in a discussion about how people want to enjoy a game more so that they can return to doing things in the real world. 

 

People in here like Haschel and Phantom complain that they don't feel a sense of genuine accomplishment if the game is "too easy" for their rarefied tastes. Perhaps this is because it is a game. It's a way to kill time. If you don't feel a sense of genuine accomplishment, that's probably because being good at Blade & Soul (however fun and interesting) is not genuine accomplishment. Perhaps they would find solving challenges and doing things in the real world would be a more gratifying experience?

 

But please, everyone, do remember that the Alpha was deliberately sped up. If you did surveys, you could quickly trivialize the first 30 levels. Premium membership benefits and free NCoin sped this up even further. Most people who made it to 40 started to repeat content to get drops and noticed a reasonable difficulty curve increase. The release candidate won't have these survey bonuses or free Hongmoon store items. It will be slower. 

 

Except we're asking for it to STAY AS IT IS. We aren't actually ASKING FOR something to be GIVEN to us. I work 8-5, I am a very accomplished individual in the real world. 

 

HOWEVER there is NO POINT to a game that hands you everything. That's why I quit WoW, I could literally play that for an hour a day or less, and get endgame gear in a week. That's not how an MMO should work.

 

You can't just call BnS a "game" when its an ACTUAL ESPORT with its own World Championship Series and everything. There is nothing wrong with taking a game seriously and wanting serious aspects in it. Inversely there is nothing wrong with being casual, but as phantom and I have said, you should not be awarded the same benefits/accomplishments for less effort than those of us who invest more time.

 

I work a lot, I play sports actively and I still have time to invest myself in a game and work toward achieving something in the game. 

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