coldimor

Bidding system

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Iesdise   

1. It only takes time if you don't bother setting minimal bid

2. Or you can go to dungeon with friends / guildies / people who play as much as you (ie. make your own party)

3. Drama is made by players (people), refer to point 2 (avoid playing with drama queens and don't take the game too seriously yourself)

4. For me its way more fun then stupid random (as ultimately unlucky person) I prefer making informed and smart decisions then be at a mercy of something I can't affect (to reiterate SMART > LUCKY )

 

So I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on all points made and for the sake of future argument I'm a casual player.

#agree on 100%

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Malvolio   

1. It only takes time if you don't bother setting minimal bid

2. Or you can go to dungeon with friends / guildies / people who play as much as you (ie. make your own party)

3. Drama is made by players (people), refer to point 2 (avoid playing with drama queens and don't take the game too seriously yourself)

4. For me its way more fun then stupid random (as ultimately unlucky person) I prefer making informed and smart decisions then be at a mercy of something I can't affect (to reiterate SMART > LUCKY )

 

So I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on all points made and for the sake of future argument I'm a casual player.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing. I feel I must point out that your entire 4 points are merely ways to compensate for a clunky system. None of them address a level playing field or casual vs hardcore. You disagree because you do not like even footing is the only thing I read. I will address them in order,

 

  1. Setting a minimum prevents the 1 copper-2 copper spectrum possibly cutting off decent seconds but still would be solved exponentially faster by the tried and true rng method. You have found 1 way to mitigate a haphazard situation which would be completely solved alternatively.  its like saying my route takes 1 hour to get to work your route takes 4 but you claim if you take a shortcut it only takes 3 hours. Additionally Increasing the starting point only exacerbates the casual elite problem which has yet to be addressed.
  2. You could run with all multiboxed bots, you could skip the dungeon and solo it at max level, you could make everyone agree beforehand to a list (EQ1 style) and run it over and over again, one could do a multitude of things to counter both bidding and RNG methods. Forcing players to rig the vote because you cannot provide a fair method does not, a good argument make
  3. Drama is created when you pit people against eachother in a player versus environment situation. In the few times people get hosed by RNGeesus or alternatively when one person gets lucky others get angry now imagine that multiplied by 100 because whoever has dispensable income literally cannot lose the item they want. Imagine tomorrow on all modern mmos I introduced a system where one could just buy a 100 roll every single drop which is exactly what this is if 2 people buy a 100 roll they have to buy another to win. Implement that feature in any modern MMORPG and there would be a riot because it promotes the worst kind of play. The argument that "There will always be drama" is like having horrible traffic on a road introducing 3 rich people only lanes and 1 poor people lane and saying "There will always be traffic we solved the problem for the people we care about"
  4. RNG is in every facet, critical hits, blocks, parries, Its more fun to you because you have control over it which could be said about all RNG making the game moot. The question of RNG vs bidding is that of fairness do you A: make everyone have an equal chance or B: allow people to buy their way to victory every time. Why stop here? Why not buy 100% critical hit chance or 100% block? RNG isn't fun remember. Im gonna take a wild guess and say you belong to the recent "Instant gratification" generation

 

Lets take the opinion out of it and make bullet points that are indisputable facts.

 

1. 1 system is completely fair to all that play no matter the real money, level, or time input to the game. 

2. 1 system depends on who has the most money and intention.

3. 1 system takes exponentially longer to resolve loot even with mitigating factors.

4. 1 system removes the lack of control from 1 person who would normally be at the mercy of RNG and hands 5 other people no control whatsoever.

5. 1 system does provide those not interested with loot an alternative way of profiting without having to sell items on the market

 

Long story short if you like this system you enjoy a rigged game, more power to you there's nothing wrong with it. The other side enjoys an equal playing field. Its a question of preference however as previously stated I believe the argument is moot because I do not see a translation team making any sweeping changes to the game. I forsee no major overhauls and nothing other than minor tweaks

Edited by Malvolio

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Absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing. I feel I must point out that your entire 4 points are merely ways to compensate for a clunky system. None of them address a level playing field or casual vs hardcore. You disagree because you do not like even footing is the only thing I read. I will address them in order,

 

..........................

How is it fair that someone who plays 1/10 of me still gets to win more items than me if they are just lucky? To me that is like finishing a doctors degree and having someone who dropped out of high school become a doctor instead of you, that is NOT fair.

 

So to compare them

 

1. People who put in more time, should be rewarded for putting in time, bid system allows that while RNG system doesn't.

2. Time it takes, if someone wants to waste your time they can do so regardless of the system used. If people want to do it fast, then both systems are only a few seconds apart in speed that takes.

 

You keep bringing up even playing field, which is NOT what the RNG system is, the bid system is by far more equal since it practicly allows more time spent to equal better chance at gear. As I started this reply with, having someone who puts in way less effort than you, "steal" an item from you because of random luck is a shitty feeling, and a system people have tried to get away from.

 

MMORPG's like WoW had their players very early on start their own systems to deal with the shitty inequality of the RNG system, by making systems like the DKP one which is somewhat similiar to the bid system, where you get rewarded for the effort you put in.

Edited by ssolitude

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Draczeq   

...

 

So you wanna say that person who puts no or very little effort into something should have same chance as person who puts time / skill / market research / real money / effort on obtaining item and then call it fair?

 

1. Or you could give everything to everyone the second they enter dungeon, which would be like teleport to work (ad absurdum). The bidding system is part of the game, it can be fun for people who like economic aspect of the game, same as playing the market or crafting etc. Bidding system is natural part of team play, same as killing trash or fighting boss.

 

2. You pretty much proved my argument, because yes ... those are other methods and you are absolutely free to pick the one that suits your needs and play style to increase your chances in the current system.

 

3. Well whats wrong with it, if you don't wanna have traffic get enough money to enjoy the free lane or pick other route that doesn't have traffic at all. No one force you to pick the route with the rich people (as you absolutely 100% free to pick your party in your analogy traffic route)

 

4. Random is never fun

 

bullet points

 

1. It's not fair for the person who puts more effort to have same chance as someone who puts none

2. Yes, you get money for effort and your personal investment in game

3. It may take longer, but its a game in itself, which is fun for economy oriented people

4. Que? Those 5 people without control gets something out of it anyway

5. If you are not interested in loot you get at least something in form of gold after each and every bidding

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Malvolio   

 

1 and 2. Define effort some would argue playing the market does not earn you a higher chance at group content drops.  All getting money and using the economy should get you is items offered off the market and that economy. If I believe DPS is effort because it takes real skill and time if I outdps you I should get the item lets have a DPS meter loot system. I apparently have to go to the realm of silly to make a basic point. Effort is a matter of perspective an RNG guarantees everyone who actually earned the kill by putting in the actual effort to complete the mission not hypothetical effort outside of the group get a fair shake. You both seem to think your actions outside of a group should earn you more items in the group which makes 0 sense. Luckily the rest of the MMO world isn't nearly as stupid because if every raid in western MMOs was a DPK the genre would be doomed. 

 

3. So it takes longer to resolve loot which is more fun? Its big of you to admit its slower but I know for me standing there bidding back and forth while the rest of the party twiddles their thumbs waiting to progress the dungeon sounds like oodles of fun. Im moist with anticipation thinking about that bid window

 

4. So they go into an instance requiring possibly 6 other players with items that only drop in that location possibly needing a breakthrough item you buy every item in the dungeon and hand the filthy casuals 2gold lets say tripling their net worth as they are indeed filthy casuals. So now 2 gold richer they requeue the dungeon only to lose to more no lifers. But hey now they are richer if they continue to run the dungeon 10x they will be able to actually outbid so meanwhile because you have no life they have to rerun content 10x. Or they can continue to queue hoping to not get a casual group or to finally get a no competition drop. Redoing something over and over trying for a different result.. man that reminds me of something r...n...g no that cant be it I just cannot remember.

 

5. So you combine your forces to defeat an enemy none of you could solo when the spoils are divided you hand each of them 1 gold grab all the gear and walk out. They got compensated they can just run it again. 

 

This is fun, so your saying you put more effort in so you should get a higher chance.. Did you put more effort into killing the npc that dropped said item? What if they out performed you in dps why not give them the item because they obviously put in real skill and effort all you did was either buy gold with money or play the market. You say "earning" gold is effort but effort is a matter of perspective, if you want to put in time playing the market and consider yourself an economist or farming gold to get items then why even have dungeons why not just offer them on the market and buy tradeable items. Your logic is full of holes aside from the fact that you don't want to compete on an even playing field.

 

You mention give everyone everything the second the enter the dungeon but that would not fit your model. Your current model is there would be no attackable npcs just merchants you walk up to the boss bid on his items and walk out. Even better remove all loot tables from the game and have everything drop money. You put in more time you have more money all items are now on merchants and you can just buy it. Voila time=money meaning you get more items because you spent more time. Loot tables are based on... the dreaded RNG that costume may or may not drop where as if we got rid of RNG altogether everyone would have fun

 

Random is never fun lets remove crit chance, hit chance, parry block all the chances. Or even better lets buy it pay 1 gold for 100% cc for 30 minutes pay 1 gold to 100% block for 30 minutes boom RNG gone your now invincible. 

 

I can now definitively say you both are part of the gimme generation. You think time spent = effort if you put time in you should get rewarded. Money can buy everything and you should get money and awards just for showing up. Its adorable

Edited by Malvolio

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Almost everything you do in the game will grant you cash, and most things can also be measured in its cash worth, this makes cash a great representation of overall efforts.

So with that someone with more cash has put more effort in, in which way is uncertain, but they can show more effort than you.

 

With that said I'll also quickly go over your point 4.

If they have more gold, they have been doing something to get more than you, so that you have to run the dungeon 10x is still less than what they did.

The one redoing stuff over and over to get a group he can win in, is the one who also is the poorest, which is directly related to their efforts.

 

And you KEEP using that phrase "Level playing field", it is not proper use of it.

 

Two people having the same opportunity to study and get educated is level playing field. What you are asking is basicly that someone who drops out of high school should be rewarded equally as someone who got a high education.

Level playing field is when two people have equal chance to become a cashier in a store for low pay or a doctor for high pay, but you are asking for the cashier and doctor to be paid the same regardless of the choice of education they did, and that is not a level playing field.

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Malvolio   

 

And you KEEP using that phrase "Level playing field", it is not proper use of it.

 

Two people having the same opportunity to study and get educated is level playing field. What you are asking is basicly that someone who drops out of high school should be rewarded equally as someone who got a high education.

Level playing field is when two people have equal chance to become a cashier in a store for low pay or a doctor for high pay, but you are asking for the cashier and doctor to be paid the same regardless of the choice of education they did, and that is not a level playing field.

 

Funny you say doctor where in your world you could be bleeding out seriously needing attention (seriously needing that item upgrade) and another guy walks in with a hangnail with more money and gets to see the doctor first.

 

A better analogy to apply to the situation is you have a job and you have an ebay business. The job is the dungeon and the ebay business is the economy they are separate of eachother but each rewarding. You put the same effort as everyone else in the job and do nothing to set yourself apart, your ebay business is thriving which makes you feel succesful. When it comes time for promotion they choose someone else based on their arbitrary system. You feel that your efforts outside of work (in this case your efforts in the game economy outside of the dungeon) warrant a higher pay grade or position of authority. Where in reality the profits from the ebay business in and of themselves are rewarding and have no bearing on your job.

 

Playing the market, earning gold, making allies with crafters should earn you all kinds of benefits in the actual economy. Loot table items only found in group content are earned in the content not outside of it. The only effort that should matter in a dungeon is group effort not individual effort outside of the dungeon. This fundamental design of every other MMORPG matches the group effort and teamwork being equivalent to eachother. The guy who spends more time playing can spend more time trying to get that RNG drop as he has more time to run the dungeon however if Casual Tim same class as you just happens to run 1 dungeon a day and takes your item its even and fair because he put the same effort you did in the group completing that mission.

 

You seem to think if you complete another mission entirely that earns you credit in a dungeon with complete strangers who care little for your achievements outside of the mission.

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Funny you say doctor where in your world you could be bleeding out seriously needing attention (seriously needing that item upgrade) and another guy walks in with a hangnail with more money and gets to see the doctor first.

 

A better analogy to apply to the situation is you have a job and you have an ebay business. The job is the dungeon and the ebay business is the economy they are separate of eachother but each rewarding. You put the same effort as everyone else in the job and do nothing to set yourself apart, your ebay business is thriving which makes you feel succesful. When it comes time for promotion they choose someone else based on their arbitrary system. You feel that your efforts outside of work (in this case your efforts in the game economy outside of the dungeon) warrant a higher pay grade or position of authority. Where in reality the profits from the ebay business in and of themselves are rewarding and have no bearing on your job.

 

Playing the market, earning gold, making allies with crafters should earn you all kinds of benefits in the actual economy. Loot table items only found in group content are earned in the content not outside of it. The only effort that should matter in a dungeon is group effort not individual effort outside of the dungeon. This fundamental design of every other MMORPG matches the group effort and teamwork being equivalent to eachother. The guy who spends more time playing can spend more time trying to get that RNG drop as he has more time to run the dungeon however if Casual Tim same class as you just happens to run 1 dungeon a day and takes your item its even and fair because he put the same effort you did in the group completing that mission.

 

You seem to think if you complete another mission entirely that earns you credit in a dungeon with complete strangers who care little for your achievements outside of the mission.

You are wrong, in my world if you are bleeding out the doctors are obligated to help you and you take priority over less critical cases regardless of their financials. Didn't really see the funny part of that either.

 

As for the analogy, it doesn't hold up because as I pointed out, gold isn't a representation of just economy, it represents overall efforts in the game due to the majority of the game rewarding you with the currency.

Gold is NOT the economy, but the economy is measured in the same value as other parts of the game, which is gold. If I do a lot of quests and run a lot of dungeons I will be rewarded in large part with gold.

 

So either you have to include dungeons as a part of the economy, or you have to accept gold doesn't solely represent the economy of the game, but also is what represents efforts in quests and dungeons.

 

And it repeats when you say the only effort that should count in a dungeon, is that individual run and nothing outside it, that is where the education example comes in. It is at this point you basicly say it doesn't matter that the doctor took a far higher, more demanding education than the cashier, because now that they are both past that part they should be rewarded equally.

 

Or to bring up a case that actually does happen, which is nurses vs doctors drawing blood, the doctor is still paid far more even though they both do the same task around the same way. Reason doctor is paid more is the efforts he had done prior to this point.

Edited by ssolitude

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Shiro   
4. For me its way more fun then stupid random (as ultimately unlucky person) I prefer making informed and smart decisions then be at a mercy of something I can't affect (to reiterate SMART > LUCKY )

Couldn't agree more!

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Couldn't agree more!

This really is spot on for me too.

 

There is something about continously losing rolls that makes me feel like the universe just hates me, some cosmic stuff just does not like me at all, and every roll failed just smash that idea clearer into me.

While in contrast it has never been so satisfying to lose an item as with the bid system, not only do I get a clear reason for why I lost it (being outbid) but I also get paid. So I get a good reason as opposed the universe randomly wanting to screw me, AND I get paid.

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I know the pain and joy of RNG. But I prefer this system more.

I would always with RNG rolls in regards to monetary things but never drop equips. (I was the type that RNG gods favored you in materials and items, but not in equips)

 

If you have the ability to inflate the price of the equipment, you definitely should do it.

You as the inflationist are limited by the amount of gold you have. And that is not infinite. 

If they have tons of gold anyways, let them spend it on trolling the bids. They take on the risk, reduce their purchasing power, and increase yours.

 

You are adding a another way in which currency can flow. All isolated economies work great when money circulates.

 

People seem to overlook if someone wants to inflate the price, you are giving the person who needs it the gold/silver needed to win the next roll.

With RNG, their bad luck will never net them the item unless they spend obscene amounts of time or have friends who are trustworthy enough to sacrifice their time to help you out.

 

With this the one person who bid on 1 gold for that drop just gave everyone 20 silver to put towards whatever each person is working towards.

 

 

 

With RNG rolls. The loser gets nothing. If you happen to be the loser, sucks for you. You get nothing and have to try again and again and again and pray that the next person who joins the party doesn't need it as the other members move on.

 

With bidding, even if I don't get the loot, I've gotten some silver to help back up my next bid. And with each failed attempt, I work my way towards building enough gold to place the winning bid for what I need.

Edited by Lighthalzen

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Boom   

I absolutely love the bidding system. This way some scumbag can't out rng me and if I lose the bid it's not a complete loss because I make some money. 

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Yamyatos   

I agree 100% with OP. I dislike the bidding system. If something drops, just make it like every other game and let people roll need/gree (need only available if you can wear the item, like in wildstar). 

Otherwhise the item will most likely go up to auction house prices anyway. I mean hey, i'am not stupid. If something drops i will bid for as long as it's viable to sell. If i get it, fine i sell it. If i dont get it, i get the maximum ammount of money for it. But thats not how LOOTING should work at all >_>

 

Thats just a awful system... thats exactly what the auction house is for. If i find something and i have to (most likely) pay the same as in the auction house.. why bother farming it in the first place anyway? I can just grind the money and buy it then. There are a few exceptions, sure. Ignoring that you could just play with friends/guild and ignore the system (which doesnt help the point that the system is good tbh), a high value item could drop and if nobody has enough money to even reech the auction house price... you get it for less. Still capitalism and you lose all your money for it... i mean what tha fuq.

 

Edit:

Oh and also, it can take quite a bit of time compared to the need/greed systems. I personally dont want to waste a lot of time either bidding, or waiting for people outbidding each other on some random item rolls while running a dungeon. Honestly, i dont undestand why many people like this system, but i guess the majority will win. I'll stick to my opinion tho.

Edited by Yamyatos

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I agree 100% with OP. I dislike the bidding system. If something drops, just make it like every other game and let people roll need/gree (need only available if you can wear the item, like in wildstar). 

Otherwhise the item will most likely go up to auction house prices anyway. I mean hey, i'am not stupid. If something drops i will bid for as long as it's viable to sell. If i get it, fine i sell it. If i dont get it, i get the maximum ammount of money for it. But thats not how LOOTING should work at all >_>

 

Thats just a awful system... thats exactly what the auction house is for. If i find something and i have to (most likely) pay the same as in the auction house.. why bother farming it in the first place anyway? I can just grind the money and buy it then. There are a few exceptions, sure. Ignoring that you could just play with friends/guild and ignore the system (which doesnt help the point that the system is good tbh), a high value item could drop and if nobody has enough money to even reech the auction house price... you get it for less. Still capitalism and you lose all your money for it... i mean what tha fuq.

 

Edit:

Oh and also, it can take quite a bit of time compared to the need/greed systems. I personally dont want to waste a lot of time either bidding, or waiting for people outbidding each other on some random item rolls while running a dungeon. Honestly, i dont undestand why many people like this system, but i guess the majority will win. I'll stick to my opinion tho.

Pretty much all major items people want in dungeons can't be traded and vendor for a low price, so auction is out of the question.

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Xenovia   

in 1 version of BnS  i tryd  the   for  exaple  blight  items  could be traded  andother purple class items also  but guess not here

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Lotus   

Become a premium user by actually supporting Blade & Soul West: problem solved.

I actually do plan on getting premium membership. I'm speaking from an equality perspective. The devs mentioned that they don't want the game to be pay2win. However, this bidding system in conjunction with the premium membership is on the borderline of giving paying players an advantage over free players in PvE, as the drops in dungeons may play a role in a character's power level.

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I actually do plan on getting premium membership. I'm speaking from an equality perspective. The devs mentioned that they don't want the game to be pay2win. However, this bidding system in conjunction with the premium membership is on the borderline of giving paying players an advantage over free players in PvE, as the drops in dungeons may play a role in a character's power level.

Just means free players will spend more time farming, they will still get all the same drops as paying players and have plenty opportunity to earn enough to win items so pay2win isn't applicable here, as paying doesn't make you win here, it is just another case of pay for conveniance.

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So here are my questions on these points:

When did paying players and non paying players become equal? One group is paying for a game that another group gets to enjoy for free unless I missed something.  So the concept that one is equal to the other doesn't really make sense to me.

When did 4-5 hours per week players become equal to 40-50 hours per week players?  One group will have far higher levels of profit from content because they spend more time with it, more often than not will be better versed in it, and only get rewards for clearing content.  Lets drop the payment thing all together and just talk about the difference between a free player at 4-5 hours per week vs a player that puts in 20+ or even 40+ hours per week, those two are nothing a like, and don't deserve to be.  If you have 2-5 hours per week to play then do that, play, enjoy, but don't think you are going to be equal in clearing speed to an equally skilled 40-50 hours per week player, they will have more gear (rightly so, they have put in far more time and effort), and more familiarity with the content, and more familiarity with the class/ classes they play.  Not to say that all players who only have a few hours to play are bad or even can't be good, or that all players that have 20+ hours per week to play are amazing.  The odds are going to support the more versed players being better though.  That has nothing to with p2w, which seems to be thrown around a lot now a day with free to play games in a manner that has nothing to do with what the term actually means.

 

The term "pay2win" refers to games which give damage buffs, defensive buffs, extra abilities, or some other game play advantage which is nearly required to play from the payment option.  It is not a term to be used with a game that offers benefits in rewards for extra game play and/ or payment of a monthly subscription.  An example of p2w would be a game that says you need to be able to craft potions to live through end game content, and the only way you can craft those potions on a regular basis is if you pay money.  Another example of p2w would be a game that says premium membership comes with free battle resurrections while non premium members get no battle resurrections at all.  Yet another might be seen even as simply saying if you are premium you get a 20% dmg buff and 20% more health. The last p2w scenario I can think of that I have encountered is simply to say if you are premium you can play as much as you like, if not you can only play 10 hours per week or even less.   P2W is not a game that says, if you are premium you get a loot quantity advantage but you have to pay for it with in-game currency too and/ or a game that says if you play more you get more for your time.

 

On the other hand, and as someone who played Tera with a premium membership at a very high rate with their need/greed system.  My guild and I stopped bothering with pugs all together in all content do to players coming in and dying over and over again and maybe even causing wipes in rare instances and then need rolling on everything they possibly could every time something dropped.  The thing that isn't being taken into account in this discussion about a need/greed loot system where content doesn't really require 20-40 man raiding teams of skilled players is that inevitably the need/ greed system will result in polarized player communities. Where most of the 20+ hours per week players will simply avoid running with players that haven't made it on to their radar as being worth having to roll against them.  In Tera my group 5-6 mans the 10 man content if we don't have enough on just to avoid having players roll on things we are after, especially players that simply can't handle the content like our group can.  

 

Those are my thoughts and questions on this subject.  I wish more games had a system like this so people who pug dungeons are always getting something for the effort.   I will say at first I thought it took a while, but frankly if you take a second and think of what you are really willing to pay for something it really goes quicker.

Edited by MrGrumpleton

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Lyndis   

I like the bidding system better than the need/greed system.  That's all that needs to be said on my end.

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I'm the douchebag that bids on items that I can't even use in any circumstance. Why you might ask? Because I'm driving the price up to give everyone more money, because I can. The problem I have with the bid system is when no one needs the items that drop. You'll always have those 3 nerds that will have a bid war over it when everyone just needs to move on. Give an option to random the item in addition to bidding. Now that I think about it, if everyone passes does it randomly assign it or does it just sit there?

it just sits there in the box or pouch that it drop in.. and you can go and pick it up

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Suki   

never ever change the system!

never understood why ppl always want need/greed, it's not rewarding at all. 

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I hope they change it to a regular need/greed with a lock on class item.

With this bid mechanic the rich will always win and the poor/casual will get nothing.

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Xenovia   

class items  should atleast be locked  to  said class and   bid or need/greed  be good if same  class  was  in party  when an item for siad class droped

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Draczeq   

I hope they change it to a regular need/greed with a lock on class item.

With this bid mechanic the rich will always win and the poor/casual will get nothing a lot of money.

 First let me correct you and second let me paraphrase:

With the need/greed the lucky will always win and the unlucky will get nothing.

 

Basically you are saying that you feel more lucky then smart enough to make money.

Edited by Draczeq

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Xenovia   

ow  i  know  how  to make  money in BnS  its  easy  ive played other version  just   atleast  if say  to  Blade  master were in same  party   then use  bid or  need  / greed  function  and  just  make  none  class items  free for  all  bidding

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